In 1961 an episode of the TV programme La Roue Tourne was filmed in Rennes-le-Château. In July 1962 Robert Arnaut, Robert Charroux and their teams visited the same village to record a radio broadcast about its famous treasure as part of the series Club des Chercheurs de Trésors.

Female presenter: Club des Chercheurs de Trésors, a programme by Robert Arnaut and Robert Charroux with the participation of the Club International des Chercheurs de Trésors. Today – the treasure of the billionaire priest.

Robert Arnaut (RA): Longitude nought degrees four minutes West, latitude forty-seven degrees seventy-one minutes North – Rennes-le-Château, a village perched on a rocky outcrop some 675 metres above sea-level, with just a few camera-shy inhabitants. In this wilderness of stones burned by the fierce sun a man stands guard night and day, on the look-out for any unfamiliar visitors. That man is Noël Corbu.

Robert Charroux (RC): Sixteen years ago Noël Corbu had just set up home in this desolate village, living in the brand-new château which a strange and very wealthy priest, Abbé Bérenger Saunière, had ordered to be built. Saunière died in 1917, bequeathing all his worldly goods (including a magnificent treasure – which is what really interests us) to his maid Marie Dénarnaud. Marie Dénarnaud plays a very important part in our story. When she died in 1953 she made Noël Corbu her heir.

RA: So, Charroux, we're not talking about a legendary treasure or just something that might be a treasure or on the other hand might not be?

RC: No, not at all. The treasure is absolutely genuine. The fact that we're here today in Rennes-le-Château and that we have Monsieur Corbu standing in front of us is enough to make it clear that this story must be taken seriously. So seriously in fact that Monsieur Corbu has suggested a figure of 120 tons of gold as the value of the treasure – but why 120 tons of gold Monsieur Corbu?

Noël Corbu (NC): 120 tons of gold, for the simple reason that the treasure-lists refer to eighteen and a half million gold pieces. And I didn't make that figure up!

RC: You arrived at it by multiplying...

NC: ...I arrived at the tonnage by multiplying the number by the weight of a gold piece of the time.

RC: I think we can say immediately that this figure belongs to the realms of fantasy. 120,000 kilos is just about the entire quantity of gold coins known to the world before the 15th century.

NC: Maybe. But I always go back to the written evidence, which is what suggested the number to me – and it doesn't specify the weight but the number of gold pieces.

RC: The story of Rennes-le-Château is one of the most beautiful legends, if not the most beautiful, that we have in France. Can you sum it up for us in just a few words?

NC: Well, very easily. Abbé Bérenger Saunière was a native of Montazels who was appointed to the parish of Rennes-le-Château on 1st June 1885. From 1885 to 1892 he led the life of a typical country priest, in other words he didn't have much money. The proof of that is that in February 1892 he borrowed 40 francs from his maid Marie Dénarnaud to pay for a postal-order. Around this time some workmen that he had helping him thanks to a loan from the village council...

RC: Sorry, a loan for how much?

NC: For 2400 francs, to restore the main-altar and the church.

RC: With just 2400 francs he could restore the main-altar and the church!?

NC: Exactly.

RC: So when was all this?

NC: February 1892. The mason whom the curé instructed to demolish the main-altar – since the main-altar was made of stone and he wanted one made of plaster – found in a pillar some wooden scrolls containing parchments. Immediately everyone got to hear about it. The Mayor came over to see what was going on. The parchments were examined. Then the curé turned up and denied that these documents, that these parchments, were of any value, saying that they were the church's business, and so he took them away. Anyway, he left the village that same evening and was missing for about eight days. At the end of the eight days he returned, and that was when his fortune suddenly appeared, to such an extent that instead of just restoring the main-altar the whole church was restored.

RC: Do you have any proof that what you're saying is correct?

NC: But of course. Look, I'll show you his account-book, his – how shall I put it – his totally private account-book...

RC: This little notebook here.

NC: Yes, this little notebook, and you'll see, for example, on one page the words 'compte de fonds secrets' – 'account for secret funds'.

RC: 'Compte de fonds secrets', 20th April 1891… yes, 'Madame Cazal 40 francs', yes I see.

NC: And on the 25th, from Madame Cavelli, 10 francs, and so on. And from April 1891 to February 1892...

RC: Yes.

NC:...we get the sum of 80 francs and 70 centimes.

RC: Yes, that certainly wouldn't have been enough for him to have built everything that we see around us.

NC: Certainly not. Now, if we turn the page we see for example: 'sums due from me to Alexandrine Marre, in the year 1890, 27th of the month, bread and other food 5 francs' etc., and then we come to 1892 where, on the 20th February, he received from Marie Dénarnaud the sum of 40 francs for a postal-order to pay for the bread.

RC: Certainly he was a poor man even by the standards of the time. And then suddenly, when we turn the pages...

NC: ...we turn the pages and we come to, for example: 'church, 1st November 1896', and then we find some travelling that he did, some full casks of rum, two pairs of oxen, something to do with two people etc., and we reach simply stratospheric sums... Anyway, you can see it all for yourself here.

RC: So suddenly he becomes the local philanthropist!?

NC: The local philanthropist...

RC: And we can see that this guy didn't stint on personal comforts either.

NC: No, he certainly didn't go without anything.

RC: You've just shown us some pretty funny invoices – the Abbé seems to have liked his rum for example?

NC: Yes he certainly did. The proof is that his average consumption was 60 to 70 litres a month.

RC: A month!

NC: And all this is backed up by evidence – I can show you letters and invoices from his importer.

RC: Yes, it says, 'I received in due course your letter of 16th July. I have the honour of informing you that...

NC: ...that on the 25th of the present month...

RC: ...I sent to your...

NC: ...to your mailbox at the railway-station in Couiza-Montazels the cask of Martinique rum which I reserved for you from the February batch.

RC: Excellent! Excellent! Here we have an invoice which is especially revealing. An account dated 14th July 1911: 'As I wish to reply to the various questions that the Vicar-General has put to me as precisely as possible I have taken several days before producing accounts of the sums devoted to the various works...' So they were asking him to produce some accounts then?

NC: Exactly.

RC: And then he does so: accounts for the restoration of the church, the Calvary, construction of the villa, etc. Anyway, he admits to falsifying the accounts a bit. Here we have some rough drafts where he was working out some simple answers to their questions. And we have a total which comes to something like a million francs in the money of the time.

NC: A million in 1900, yes exactly.

RC: Which is what in today's money?

NC: 300 million francs.

RC: Right! And a poor country curé couldn't find that sort of money just from looking after his flock or from the Sunday collection.

NC: Absolutely impossible.

RC: Right.

NC: Now look, I'm going to show you another document in which the Diocese asks him where he's getting the money from to build all these things. Here's the official document with the watermark of the Diocese of Carcassonne.

RC: We have evidence that the Abbé travelled a lot, not just in France and on behalf of his Diocese, but above all abroad. And apparently, as you've just told me, he did this to go and change all this money, something that would have been practically impossible for him to do in the South-West.

NC: Exactly. He often went to Spain, Belgium and Switzerland, and each trip corresponded to a transfer of money to the post-office in Couiza where Marie would go to collect it.

RC: And it was Marie who was expected to cover up for the Abbé, as we have a dozen letters here all ready-drafted and if, by chance, a letter arrived at Rennes-le-Château, whether it was from the Diocese or from some friend or other, then all Marie had to do was slip a letter into an envelope saying something like, as we can see here, 'Obliged to leave immediately just as your letter was arriving to attend to one of my venerable colleagues, I shall content myself for the time being with acknowledging receipt of your letter and thanking you for it'. And Marie would send that, just slip it into an envelope, and everyone would think the Abbé was still in Rennes-le-Château when he was actually in Switzerland or Spain.

NC: Exactly.

RC: They tell me that little packets full of gold arrived at the post-office in Couiza.

NC: Yes. In other words the Abbé, every time he needed money, would travel abroad and arrange the transfers of funds to the post-office in Couiza, and Marie Dénarnaud, along with another person who died not very long ago, a Madame Barthélémy of Couiza, would go and fetch these bags full of louis d'or.

RC: And the old folks in Couiza still remember all this!

NC: Perfectly, perfectly! There are still plenty of people who were contemporaries of the curé who very clearly remember all the things that happened there.

RC: And they saw bags of gold!

NC: ...they saw bags of gold.

RC: And doing all that finally earned for our dear Abbé a letter of suspension which we have in front of us here: 'It is with a heavy heart but with a profound sense of duty that the Diocesan Administration of Carcassonne must inform the faithful that Abbé Saunière, the former curé of Rennes-le-Château, residing at the present time in that village, has been by sentence of the Officialty dated 5th December 1911 deprived of his sacerdotal powers'. So Bérenger Saunière was able to convert a part of the treasure that he had found into cash and then use it to build this tower where we are now, this walkway, but he also tried to cover his tracks because – what would really be interesting – would be to find out how he found the treasure, because if we could find that out then we could, in our turn, perhaps get back on the scent ourselves. But there's something that could help us with that, because you're the heir to Bérenger Saunière aren't you?

NC: Well actually I'm the heir of Marie Dénarnaud who was herself – as you might say – the heiress of Abbé Saunière, so I'm the heir at one remove.

RC: How exactly did you come to be Marie Dénarnaud's heir?

NC: It wasn't difficult. We bought this building in 1946 and Marie Dénarnaud, who was living in the presbytery next door to us, fell ill. We looked after her, and to thank us she left us all her worldly goods, actually her few possession at that time, and all the archives as well, so all these letters and stuff.

RC: There's something really quite extraordinary though. Before the Abbé died didn't he tell Marie where the treasure was?

NC: It's very likely that he did. Actually I think she knew all the time, right from the outset.

RC: Right, but then Marie should have told you where the treasure was?

NC: Well Marie said to me, 'When I'm dead you'll have plenty of money. You'll have more money than you'll know what to do with'. But unfortunately she fell ill one morning. It was an infectious type of 'flu which immediately affected the brain. She was in a coma for five days without being able to speak.

RC: And you immediately tried to find out where this treasure was. And how do you think we can get on the right track, or rather how can you do so, because you're the owner?

NC: Saunière tried to cover his traces, because first of all he found the parchments and then in the cemetery there was a tombstone of the Comtesse d'Haupoul Blanchefort from which he erased all the inscriptions with a cold chisel over several days after locking himself in the cemetery. In fact he went so far that the village council got upset about it and forbade him from continuing. As a result he had good reason to obfuscate and finally to destroy evidence of this kind.

RC: This tombstone, is it still in the cemetery?

NC: Yes, it's still in the cemetery but it's absolutely blank.

RC: But can we go and look at it in a moment?

NC: Yes of course.

RC: Monsieur Corbu, you've also told us about a certain Monsieur Cros who came to have a look around here in 1928 and found some stones in the cemetery.

NC: He found a tombstone in the cemetery which bore some specific inscriptions. He found another tombstone at Coumesourde which also bore some specific inscriptions, and it's certain that they, how shall I put it, have some sort of meaning. Just by selecting different points on this tombstone I've performed a triangulation which has produced some minor results.

RC: So you've made some triangles here. I see SAE – SIS. This is not the same as...

NC: No, the stone of Coumesourde, which was also found by Monsieur Cros, has different indications. I did an experimental triangulation starting from precise points which the discovery of a monolith yielded, a monolith that has still not given up all its secrets!

RC: In other words you've bisected these angles, right?

NC: Yes.

RC: But these angles start where? What do these angles represent?

NC: SAE, as far as I have been able to work out on the basis of Latin, stands for Sub Altarum Iglesias [I think he means Sub Altarum Ecclesias – translator], in other words 'under the main-altar of the church' [actually it means 'under the churches of the altars' – translator]. SIS is probably the Old French word meaning ici, 'here'. And with these two points we can apparently form an equilateral triangle, as first of all Rennes was governed by the sign of the Ram [Aries] and the Ram is inscribed in a triangle, and by drawing this equilateral triangle and the bisections we arrive at a precise point.

RC: So to obtain more information we need to know what was on the stones from Rennes-le-Château which Monsieur Cros took to Paris?

NC: Exactly. Monsieur Cros took these two stones to Paris, and we know that certain words are missing and I would very much like to find these stones and, with modern methods of scientific detection, we could find out what these missing words are.

RC: So to sum up we could send a message to people in Paris mentioning some specific part of Paris, a museum perhaps...

NC: ...a lapidarium, yes...

RC: ...in a lapidarium, or perhaps these stones are in the possession of a family, or a private individual...

NC: ...yes, we're talking about two quite rough-hewn triangular stones...

RC: ...which are how big?

NC: They'd have to be about half a square metre.

RC: Half a square metre, about thirty centimetres long in other words?

NC: Thirty to forty centimetres long yes, about that. And with the inscriptions, if we find the inscriptions – because these stones, I don't really know them all that well but it's the inscriptions above all that will enable us to identify them as the stones we're looking for. At the upper edge you have P and S, REDDIS, that's R-E-D-D-I-S, REGIS, that's R-E-G-I-S. Below Reddis you have CELLIS – that's C-E-L-L-I-S – letters separated by lines, and then you have ARCIS which is below REGIS – that's A-R-C-I-S, and at the bottom you have PRAE-hyphen-CUM, that's C-U-M.

RC: So there you have it. If any Parisians listening know where these stones are that bear the words Reddis, Cellis, Regis, Arcis and Prae-cum, then we'd like them to get in touch with Radio Diffusion Française, France 1, Club des Chercheurs de Trésors, and tell us whether these stones exist and if so where they are. Now there are the words on the second stone which Monsieur Corbu is looking for. Monsieur Corbu, over to you.

NC: Well at the apex of the triangle you have S-A-E. At a second corner S-I-S. At a third corner, or thereabouts, you have IN MEDIO with a cross patty, a Templar cross patty. On the side you have LINEA UBI. Below that you have M SECAT, that's S-E-C-A-T, then LINEA PARVAT. Then you have P.S., then PRAE-CUM again, and a Templar cross which completes the third side of the triangle.

Editor's note: The second part of this radio broadcast was recorded in the church, where Robert Charroux was using a sophisticated metal-detector.

RA: The stones underneath the main-altar have finally spoken to us. All our friend Charroux had to do was pick up his metal-detector and carry it into the interior of the church of our friend the Abbé. Here he is, detector in hand. We're getting close to him now. He's near the stoup at the entrance in the shape of a devil where, as tradition or legend has it, there's an underground chamber.

RC: Gently, gently! Bring the detector towards me again...

RA: There might be an underground chamber under the devil's feet. Have you found something?

RC: Of course I have! Stop there please! There! Don't move until I tell you to! Now walk towards the devil – gently, gently does it! Wait, can you see? Move a bit further away, a bit further back. Now come towards me again... You see, there's something metallic down there! But that can't be the treasure unless it's under the stoup! Please move around the foot of the stoup...

RA: ...there's already some old metal down there...

RC: Ah, yes perhaps that's what it is. Listen carefully when you move towards it and you'll hear it. Do you want to get closer and have a look? Ah, yes, it's the old metal. Right, if you like we can prospect along the entire length of the nave. You should try to keep the detector the same distance above the ground all the way. Start from here and cover the whole nave as far as the main-altar, and keep the search-coil at the same height of thirty to forty centimetres above the ground.

RA: I think we're wasting our time here in the church, aren't we Charroux?

RC: One never knows! We know that thousands of researchers come here every week, or every year at least, to search and use their detectors. On Sunday it's like a raiding-party, a real commando group that comes from Carcassonne to try and find the famous missing billions.

RA: Because the church is still a place of worship, right?

RC: I don't think so, no. You've seen how far it is from Couiza. There's no priest here. And for a priest to climb all this way, well!

RA: Yes, but what's even funnier about this story, and upsetting at the same time, is that this church has been absolutely vandalised! It's quite funny really. The floors have been torn up, the walls have been drilled full of holes, all the statuary has been mutilated and re-plastered. Not an inch of ground has been left undisturbed. Yes, you're right, we are wasting our time in this chapel.

RC: At the moment, yes. It's better if we go to the cemetery, especially because there we have two completely irradiated [?] places which we've found. I'll take you there to look at them now. As far as I'm concerned there's an important clue there.

RA: OK let's go to the cemetery.

Editor's note: The final part of the broadcast was recorded In the cemetery, where the two compères met up again with Noël Corbu.

RC: So that's the tombstone of the Comtesse, right? Is that what we're looking at over there?

NC: The tombstone of the Comtesse, that's right, and it's absolutely free of any inscriptions because the curé...

RC: ...chiselled them all off?

NC: ...chiselled them all off so that nothing was left. I think that one day we may be able to recover these inscriptions with some rather special techniques.

RC: Chemical ones?

NC: Chemical ones yes, but above all optical techniques.

RC: Is the tombstone the right way up or has it been turned over?

NC: We don't know because the two sides are similar.

RC: It looks completely polished.

NC: Completely polished.

RC: Whatever the case, there's absolutely nothing here. We've already been detecting for several minutes on and around the tombstone. We started four to five metres away and there's really not an ounce of metal to be found in the area. You know, Monsieur Corbu, a police-officer from Paris once told me that when he was ill during the First World War and was in hospital at Choisy-le-Roi he met a mason from Espéraza, is that right?

NC: From Espéraza, yes.

RC: And this guy told him that one day before the War, before he left for the front – that would have been in about 1914, 1915, right? - the curé of Rennes-le-Château sent for him and asked him to fill in the dépositoire [the place where the coffins are stored after they are closed but before they are buried – translator] in the cemetery. This was immediately on the right as you entered the cemetery. OK, we're now in the cemetery, and we're at the place where, according to the police-officer, the dépositoire was in 1914. What do you think?

NC: I don't think this is correct because the curé didn't have permission to enter the cemetery, for two reasons. First, after rubbing out the inscriptions on the tomb of the Comtesse d'Haupoul-Blanchefort he was, how shall I put it, blacklisted by the village council. He was forbidden to work in the cemetery. Second, he had also been suspended by the Diocese. As a result he would not have had access to the cemetery at that time.

RC: But he could still have gone in these. Cemeteries are open to the public.

NC: Yes, but he didn't have permission to undertake any civil works or get other people to do them.

RC: OK, but in your view would the dépositoire have been there even so?

NC: I don't think so.

RC: Well where then?

NC: It was opposite, in other words in the ossuary which he'd had built down there.

RA: Down there, up here – opinion is divided. Statements don't agree. Are the witnesses lying perhaps? Or are their memories playing them tricks? We don't know. And on this subject we have a rather peculiar testimony, don't we Charroux?

RC: Yes, at Perpignan we found a workman called Pierre Alquier who made some astonishing claims. In particular he claimed that first of all he'd helped Bérenger Saunière to find the treasure – which, in my opinion, is manifestly untrue – and then that in 1917, faced with the German invasion with which France was then threatened, Saunière took fright and gave him the task of hiding the treasure.

RA: Anyway, here's what the witness had to tell us!

RC: You knew Abbé Bérenger Saunière, the curé of Rennes-le-Château?

Pierre Alquier (PA): Yes sir.

RC: You knew him?

PA: Yes, but he's dead now.

RC: And you helped him, I believe, with some excavations that he undertook?

PA: Yes, I worked on them.

RC: Did the curé ask you to do something down in the diggings?

PA: Yes, to dig the ditch.

RC: The ditch...

PA: While I was digging the ditch I found something.

RC: You dug a hole where?

PA: Under the château opposite, which is on the left. Opposite, under the church.

RC: So you dug under the church and, at a certain point, as you said in your letter to me, you came up against an iron door, right?

PA: Yes.

RC: So this door, what did you do with it?

PA: I left it as it was. I opened it and looked to see what was inside. Among what was inside there was some stuff from olden days.

RC: But how did you open the door?

PA: With a blow from the pickaxe.

RC: A blow from the pickaxe. So you smashed it open in other words?

PA: Yes, I smashed it open. I found that that was the way to do it.

RC: When you smashed the door down what did you see?

PA: There were sabres, bayonets, all sorts of arrows and stuff from olden days.

RC: Were there any boxes?

PA: Well I didn't see any!

RC: And what did the curé say to you? Did he let you touch these objects?

PA: No.

RC: I believe he paid you something not to talk about it?

PA: Yes.

RC: What did he give you? He gave you 6000 francs in cash not to say anything about it?

PA: Yes.

RC: That's correct?

PA: Yes, but I'm talking about it now.

RC: You're talking about it now. When did all this happen?

PA: In 1930, 1935 or thereabouts.

RC: In 1930 or 1935!?

PA: Around that time yes.

RC: But the curé died in 1917! How can you have been helping him in 1935 when he died in 1917! How's that possible?

RA: Monsieur Alquier scratched his head and fiddled with the button on his jacket. It was certainly a baffling question for him, but more than that we don't know. We no longer know if he was lying or not. But no, he certainly wasn't lying, he was just confused in the dates that's all, he was no longer sure of his facts (6). So nothing in his story really stacks up, just like all the other testimonies. But really this was not a serious conversation. It wasn't a genuine line of enquiry. I think we need to go back to the place where it all happened, to go back to Rennes-le-Château and there, with Monsieur Corbu, we shall find a definite line of enquiry. One that involves the tomb of Bérenger Saunière perhaps...

RC: Monsieur Corbu, we're here at the tomb of Bérenger Saunière. And you once told me that this tomb was formerly in the shape of a vault, a double-vault?

NC: Yes, a double-vault, that's right. And huge ones too, as you could have fitted at least thirty bodies into them from one side to the other.

RC: Good, that's quite important because you also told me that this vault was built before the curé's death and that he often went there or that even some of the local lads went to play inside it?

NC: He didn't go there before he died, no, but lads certainly went and played in there. The proof is that the tomb [tombe], I mean the sepulchre [tombeau] was not actually finished at the time of his death. It wasn't finished because he was planning to build a chapel on top of it.

RC: In your view, would it have been possible for him to have built on the concrete, on the concrete slabs, some sort of hiding-place for his treasure, an absolutely impregnable one, which would have belonged to him because that would be his last resting-place? He knew that no one would go there.

NC: I no longer believe that to be the case, as there were lots of workmen who'd been working there for a long time and it's obvious that when you have workmen around you can't hope to keep anything secret.

RC: Now, Monsieur Corbu, I'm going to be very naughty. I note that on the other side of this tomb, in other words about a metre away from us, alongside this wall which is a party-wall with your own property, you've dug a hole which is currently almost two metres deep. Does this mean that some research is going on? You're going to be looking for something?

NC: I just want to see if there is anything abnormal in the wall, that's all!

RC: I came to see you a couple of years ago, in 1960 that would be, and at that time you were in the process of getting your hotel in order. There were walls which had still not been finished and I had already formulated the theory that you had perhaps found the treasure. You said to me, 'Oh no, no, if I'd found the treasure I would have finished the restoration work on the hotel'. I can see that at the time of speaking these works are still incomplete and yet you've bought a chain of six hotels I believe?

NC: Well that's not quite correct but yes, I'm in the process of buying them.

RC: And you've got a factory here making lampshades?

NC: I've got a lampshade factory which at the moment is expanding quite nicely.

RC: But you've suddenly become very rich Monsieur Corbu!

RA: You're skating on thin ice there!

RC: No, a couple of years ago you solemnly swore to me that you were a poor man. You're not finishing the...

NC: But I still am poor!

RC: No, that can't be the case any longer. What sort of poor man has a chain of six hotels, a lampshade factory, and a beauty-products and perfume factory – no, we certainly can't believe you're poor. And you can't stop the good folk of the area thinking – and we're thinking along the same lines – that two years ago your situation quite clearly improved and we think, along with all the good folk round here, that you've found at least a part of the treasure of Abbé Saunière.

RA: One day we'll be looking at the accounts and little notebooks of Monsieur Corbu and we'll find exactly the same story as with Abbé Saunière.

RC: A page of secret accounts!

RA: Right. The Debit and Credit, with columns bursting at the seams!

NC: Why not!

Female presenter: You have been listening to Club des Chercheurs de Trésors, a programme by Robert Arnaut and Robert Charroux with the participation of the Club International des Chercheurs de Trésors. Production assistant: Laurent Capelli. Producer: Jacques-Adrien Blondeau. Today's episode: the treasure of the billionaire priest.